Lynn Massie 💙
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first you punch down on Native Americans/Indigenous people, and now this?

what is going on with "allies?"
Jim Plunkett @JimP32
This is a bit simplistic, but basically correct

Trans M->F athletes should qualify/DSQ as if they were taking M hormones as PEDs for the time & doses they were circulating in their blood pre-transition

If a sport allows F-athletes to take testosterone++ from age 12-18?, then compete, else DSQd
06:17 PM - Mar 18, 2024
07:18 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to Lynn Massie 💙.
What is it that you think is unfair abt measuring hormone levels? Someone who transitioned early (or blocked puberty then took normal levels of hormone) would pass easily

I said Jenner's approach was oversimplisitc, but ignoring that some can get hormones that others don't is unfair.
08:09 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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RA
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In response to Jim Plunkett.
I think you need to do considerably more reading about hormone levels in both cis and trans folx, before you make uninformed comments like this.

And as a former elite female athlete, I can say without question that we don't need you to "protect" our sports from trans women.
08:18 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to RA.
Hey! good to meet another fmr world-level competitor here!

It's not the current hormone levels I'm referring to, it's the M levels of androgens through the growth years, when the serious muscle base & bone struct is built

I'll take your nudge and read more too; any pointers welcome
09:34 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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RA
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In response to Jim Plunkett.
My suggestion would be to widen your concept of what a woman can be as you learn more. Hormones are not cut and dry, and neither is gender. For example, setting aside trans folx for a minute, there is natural occurring overlap in testosterone levels of women with PCOS and men with low testosterone.
09:42 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to RA.
Yes, def a wide range, and indeed overlap, on basically every parameter & combination. Overlaps edge-cases are *very* hard

Elite sport is different; the *only* area I have any trans issue

So far, literally the 1st study I found in today's search quite confirmed my prev knowledge
I'll keep looking
10:10 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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RA
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In response to Jim Plunkett.
This chipping away at trans rights is the same game conservative Christians have been playing with abortion rights. It's not about the hormones. It never was. It is a red herring argument.
10:15 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to RA.
I get that this is a slippery slope argument (I've got both a neighbor's kid and a very good friend who are trans; I'm not trying to chip away at anything)

At the same time, I get that it also has real physical potential to trash Title IX

And physics is physics; hormone therapy only goes so far
10:21 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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RA
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If you want to do something that will actually protect female athletes, focus on getting rid of all the coaches who groom and rape them. That's the real issue in women's sports. That's what is really effecting performance. Not making space for the 2% of trans athletes.
In response to Jim Plunkett.
10:28 PM - Mar 18, 2024 (Edited)
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to RA.
OK: 2% of trans athletes

Yet we both know elite sports are won/lost by fractions of a percent

With a small% advantage, those 2% of trans will dominate podiums, shutting out the 98% of women

The BJSM study showed an AVERAGE ~5.5% and up to 16%+ T vs F advantage in 1.5mi run, AFTER...
11:25 AM - Mar 19, 2024
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to Jim Plunkett.
...AFTER 2.5 years of T hormone therapy

In the NCAA 1500m final, the difference between 5th and 1st place was 0.6%

A 5-16%+ advantage hands the win — and the scholarships & opportunities that go with it — to a competitor who wouldn't even qualify for the finals on a fair field. ...
11:26 AM - Mar 19, 2024
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PS Annie
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In response to RA.
💯 this. Until this happens, any other arguments are meaningless.
12:24 AM - Mar 19, 2024
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Jim Plunkett
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In response to RA.
Agree that is a huge issue, haven't been in direct contact, but 3rd-hand stories, for sure. Bad.

I was just commenting on Jenner's comment, not prioritizing one over the other or trying to solve all problems
10:33 PM - Mar 18, 2024
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